Existential questions

Hey @lemurien 

Totally ok to rant here! I can tell that what happened with your Mum today was frustrating for you. You're right, nobody likes to be called grumpy or cranky.... ever! You mentioned that you feel scared and angry sometimes.. can you tell me a bit more about that? 

The pandemic is really dragging on, isn't it? It can be a real drain on each day especially if they all seem the same. I can relate to your experience with your Dad as I am in lockdown myself and have heard from friends and family in different areas. This whole lockdown has been full of uncertainty and change for such a long time which is uncomfortable for most people. It is really understandable to miss what life was like for you pre-lockdown. I really feel for you going through all of this, it sounds like a lot

Hello @Taylor-RO  , can I just say, the supportive attitude on the forums is really breathtaking sometimes. when I read your reply, it made me realise that I am always really aching for someone to ask questions about how I feel and the thoughts I express and show their interest in really understanding me. 🙂 That's the best kind of support for me.

well.. I get scared that anxiety will always plague me, since that's how I perceive my mum. she is always overreacting, getting upset about things, telling me she is dreading something or can't stop thinking about something that happened, every day complaining of ailments like stomachache or insomnia that I know come from anxiety, etc etc... and the way she talks is often all frantic and negative, and it reminds me of my own thoughts. I am so afraid of living my whole life that way like her. then I feel angry at her (I admit, even though I said above I'm not cranky 😛 ) for being this way. it also makes me very angry that she doesn't believe psychology therapy could work for her or that she needs it. Then I get all my existential worries about whether life is worth it or whether she or I can be "happy"... very exhausting.

The pandemic!!! I can't believe it's still going and can't believe everything that's happened. It has been very traumatic and full of grief. Sometimes I wonder how anyone in Vic (or NSW or ACT) can handle another second of it. 

I'm glad to hear that you are finding the support you are receiving from the community to be helpful @lemurien 😄. It sounds like you and your mum have been going through a lot and that her symptoms of anxiety have been challenging to manage. It can be so hard to support someone when they are going through difficult times. Do you have anyone that you can talk to about your mum's experiences and how this has been making you feel?

Hey @Sophia-RO 

It has been like this with mum for many years so I am used to it in a way, but she really does frustrate me sometimes and I think it's best that I don't live with her (unfortunately that isn't possible atm). My siblings don't like to hear about my experiences with her, they both say they moved out of home to get away from it all and get annoyed if I broach the subject, or say negative things about her which hurts my feelings. Don't worry, I have spoken about it with psychologists in the past.

Heya @lemurien ,

I hear you. When you live in the same house as someone, it feel like everything someone does is more intense as they're always there, and you don't really have a getaway (your own place) for some breathing room. It's hard when you can't share your experience with your siblings, but it sounds like you're navigating it as best as you can. I'm sure there will come a time where you have more decision-making in your living arrangements. It sounds like although it can be frustrating, you still really care about your mum. I found that once I moved out from home, my relationship with my sibling which was always fighting changed since we weren't constantly in each others faces. 

Hey, @lemurien  I've been catching up on your thread and I wanted to drop in! Weighing up big existential questions can be a lot, so I'm happy you decided to chat this one out. 

I can see why that interaction with your mum left you feeling confused about what to do next. It sounds like what heaviness of what you are feeling was oversimplified a bit.

Finding contentment and meaning in life is something we are all learning to do every day - I don't believe it makes you negative for contemplating these ideas, the greatest thinkers of all time have also wrestled with the meaning of life.                                    

@StormySeas17 mentioned leaning into the study of philosophy and I would agree. Approach it with curiosity and if you can try not to feel pressured to work it all out. The meaning of life is an individual thing and is always changing. 

Do you mind if I ask you what are some things in life that makes you really happy/content? They can be really simple things. For example, I love the sunshine and feel instantly uplifted when the sun is shining. Those little moments of contentment give my days meaning.                

I hope starting the conversation with your psych goes well! Let us know how you go with it if you feel up to it 🙂                                                                                                 

Hi @Bre-RO thank you for reading my thread and sharing your thoughts with me. I really appreciate how I have been able to hear from so many people here. I have been reluctant to let the thread end because the support means so much to me.

For 6 weeks now I have been writing down every night at least 3 things I enjoyed/valued even a little bit that day. I think it has been useful and I don't write something down unless I really mean it. But the problem with me is that I don't feel like I truly engage with these things I enjoy; they're hardly even real to me. Does that make sense? For example I would go for a walk and put all my energies into making it a mindful walk and think "I feel the warm sunlight, I see a beautiful tree with lemons on it" but it just feels like it is all happening in my head mechanically and not that I truly in my heart enjoyed my walk. I usually feel relieved when I get home so I can stop trying so hard. Or even before the pandemic, I used to go dancing, and while I can honestly say it brought me some kind of happiness I used to wonder "why can't I feel this happiness properly? why does it feel like I'm not 100% here? why do I feel apart from everyone else?" I remember taking a plane overseas and thought I should be excited but I didn't feel anything. Or when I was in Year 12 the formal, the graduation, I couldn't get excited over it.

This doesn't make my life awful and it doesn't mean I don't enjoy anything at all, which makes it hard to explain and is probably why my mum doesn't understand why I am not fine. But at times like now when everything becomes so hard it makes it hard to feel like life is worth it. It seems like the hardships are so hard and the positives are so weak, the balance is off, so I wonder truly if there is any point to life and I get angry that I have to drag myself through it. 

Hey @lemurien, glad to hear that you have been enjoying the support As Bre said, you have opened up a really good topic to chat about.

I can hear that you have put in a lot of effort to being mindful and showing gratitude for some of the smaller parts of life. It must be frustrating and confusing to be putting in the effort but to also feel like you aren't truly engaging. If you were to truly engage, what would that look like? What would being 'here' and feeling 'happiness properly' look like?

I am also sorry that you had that experience with your Mum. It seems like things are particularly tough for you at the moment, so I imagine that her response might have made things more confusing and upsetting for you. Is there anyone in your life who understands why you are not fine at the moment? 

Hi @Taylor-RO it has been lovely, sorry if I write too much/reply too often though, I feel like it might be a lot of work for everyone to keep replying to me - I just have too much time on my hands in lockdown 😅 I think those are important questions you've asked me, but they are difficult; I think perhaps I don't have an answer as to what 'right' would look like, which is what makes feeling something is 'wrong' so distressing. It makes me worry I am making it all up.

I guess it would look like having my thoughts, my feelings and my physical self all in the same place at once. and all three would flow freely through the world, and it would feel genuine.

Hmm well, my siblings care about me but they're the tough love type, and other people I've talked to tend to have a similar response to my mum, or otherwise just agree that things suck which I find so discouraging.

It's so hard being a grown up. it feels like everyone has so much to worry about all the time I really can't show up and disrupt their lives by bringing them my problems. And everyone is suffering so much with the lockdown.

Please don't apologise @lemurien - I know I really value the discussion and I can't speak for other people, but I'm sure there are plenty of others reading and responding who do too. I also wanted to say that there's no right or wrong - it's your life and only you really know your own experience. 💛

I hear what you're saying about feeling quite detached from things and I personally think that struggling to feel present does have an impact on how we feel about our lives. I guess I'm wondering if that's something that might be good to explore with a therapist if you were able to find one you feel comfortable with... It's complicated when you're not sure about your current one. Have you been able to talk to her any more about how you're feeling?

Re your family's responses, do you feel like you could give them some tips on what you need when you reach out to them for support? Do you think they'd be open to shifting how they respond?

Thanks so much @Philippa-RO 🙂 I don't know if you are a psychologist but do you know what kind of techniques are used for what I have been talking about? Like for example I don't think CBT helps with it, at least not for me. It seems like mindfulness is very relevant but I have not been able to get it to work for me. I'm just wondering for when I start to look at other psychologists what sort of skills I will need them to have. It's a bit stressful because I am probably moving at the end of the year which makes me feel like I should stay with my current psych for now... or I guess look for a psych in my new city who does telehealth? But then if I don't end up moving there I will be seeing a psych in another city for no reason, and won't be able to see them in person. Not that I can see a psych in VIC in person for the foreseeable future anyway. I get overwhelmed thinking about it. I still have a few weeks before I can even talk to the psych I do have!

Ah to be honest I am a lot more comfortable keeping all this to myself. But maybe that's a self sabotage and it really would help. I will think about it. But in the past I have sort of learned that people see things differently to me and they don't have anything to say that helps.

Hi @lemurien ,

That's a bit of a complex question to answer and a bit beyond the realm of exploring it effectively here, I think. It may be better to speak to this with your psychologist if you aren’t finding the techniques they are using are effective for you, or you are interesting in trying something else or knowing more.

In terms of therapeutic techniques in general, it really varies from clinician to clinician what techniques and systems they use and how they apply them during therapy. A good analogy would be something like a carpenter, every carpenter uses different tools for different jobs, but all carpenters use generally some basic tools which can be applied to all jobs. Some prefer some tools over others, some prefer to use more tools, others prefer to use less. But regardless of what tools they use, all skilled carpenters can build you a chair.

Generally, research shows that connecting with, and having a warm, empathetic relationship with your therapist tends to correlate more to better client outcomes, than a matching that specific technique. In context to our analogy this could be, the better communication with your carpenter you have and the better that they understand your needs, the better constructed and more comfortable chair you will have at the end.

So, I would say, when looking for a psychologist, maybe see if they offer a 10-minute introduction or intake session. See if you gel, see if they are a good fit for you, focus on how you feel when you are with them and communicate to them what you need during the sessions. Since you haven’t spoken to them yet in depth, maybe give your current one a shot and see how you go before looking elsewhere?

Does this help reduce the overwhelming and stressful feelings of the process at all?

Source: Lambert, M. J., & Barley, D. E. (2001). Research summary on the therapeutic relationship and psychotherapy outcome. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice,

Hi @Matt-RO , thank you so much, I agree I asked a pretty massive question but what you wrote helps a lot. It makes me feel a bit better about feeling uncertain with my current psych as well, I had been thinking 'well I like her as a person and she's doing therapy on me so what is my problem?!' But it makes sense that it is more about the relationship. I guess I'll keep sitting on this problem and see how the next appointment goes.

@StormySeas17 thanks so much for this! I have had a few people tell me I should learn about philosophy but I have never done it because it's overwhelming to know where to start, I mean philosophy has existed for thousands of years. I guess I will start with your link 😊

Hey @lemurien yeah it's really difficult to try to find resources at first so I recommend going onto internet encyclopedias with .edu and then also journals or blogs. Wikipedia is not a great help unless you just want a list of philosophical schools of thought 😆 Existentialism is also a school of philosophy actually, Sartre is half decent hahah.

I'm glad to see that you've been getting some advice here about where your existential feelings may come from. I definitely agree with what has been said that it always seems to be when you're feeling down or dejected that the existential thoughts come in as you struggle to find meaning in the negatives. How are you going with your existential thinking? 

oh yes I have tried wikipedia for philosophy and it was so not welcoming 😅 I have been enjoying reading books lately; I wonder if I could find a good book that introduces some different types of philosophy. I know all the conclusions I come to in my main post are pretty bleak but deep down I want to believe in things like that life is worth it because of the beauty of nature and mutual goodwill between humans etc... do you know if there's a school of philosophy for pessimistic optimists? 😛

what chatting here has made me think is that the questions I am asking are just covering other questions which are as simple as 'why am I suffering?' and 'will the suffering end?' And those questions are really just a cry for help, for my pain to be acknowledged and for someone to help that pain go away. So when I feel the urge to get existential and wonder 'why is the world like this?' I am trying to ask myself instead 'what is hurting?" and be kind. It has made a difference, this thread has been amazing. 🙂 I only wish I could figure out how to "understand and soothe that pain" like Philippa said, because I really don't understand why I have that pain or what I can do about it. That is probably beyond what any of you guys can advise me about and beyond anything I can do by myself... but I don't feel my psychologist 'gets' me and I'm not seeing her again till October anyway, so it's a bit of a dilemma... 

@lemurien I'm sure you can! Maybe at your local library if/when they're open 😅 or a podcast maybe? When I think of that question something does come to mind haha. Sartre is an existentialist so he comes to the whole 'there is no higher purpose or thing telling you what to do' conclusion that nihilists do. But he answers that by saying that it means you have both the right and responsibility to follow your own truth and happiness and to live a life that has its own meaning and makes you happy. He calls it 'authenticity' and it also links back into the idea of goodwill in a way! Because he basically says that we have an obligation to treat others in line with our own truth and what we want the world to look like, that we should treat others how we want to be treated. Which is a very common conclusion in philosophy and religion I've found but I guess they're onto something 😂 I really like philosophy that's values and integrity-based.

Wow that's such a meaningful realisation! The fact you've made that first step and realised that these are thoughts that come to you when you're feeling down is awesome. It kind of makes me think that those fears aren't what defines you when you're at your best then, but that it sometimes it's hard to remember what your best self would be thinking?

Hmm yeah it took me a minute to think of what 'soothing' might look like. I think you're like me and like to have answers to everything 😆 last session I had with my psych she told me that I'm allowed to just feel crappy because I just do, but that once I recognise that then I can take steps to start thinking positively about the situation, or at least align myself back with my values and what matters to me. I really didn't vibe with my psych when I first met her because she's much more analytical than emotional like my last psych was but I think it's nice to hear her perspective. I hope you get some luck with your psych and with these feelings soon ❤️

@StormySeas17 Yeppp I get the impression we are very similar people 😆 I always have to analyse and find 'answers' but I think I get too stuck in it and can't find my way out. I reckon in that state I could actually come across the 'perfect answer' if it existed, but totally dismiss it like "nah, that can't be it, better think some more." I really like what you've said about Sartre, I agree with him for sure.

The fears don't define my best self - love the way you've put that! i really think you have a talent at 'reading between the lines' and understanding what people are getting at, which will make you so successful at whatever you end up doing in the psych field 🙂 

As an update - I sent emails to different psych clinics asking if they are accepting any new patients and I did manage to find one place without exorbitant fees or waiting lists and I'm going to try seeing a psych with them. I think it's worth a try bc I think the stuff we've been talking about in this thread is something where I'd need a psych who makes me feel really safe and understood. But if it doesn't work out with the new psych I will know I still have the original psych and try some strategies to improve our sessions. So yeah! I feel good about the outcomes of our conversations here 🙂

@lemurien ahh that sounds like a difficult skill to have, to think of things to the point you lose the answer. I guess maybe that's why philosophy could help, because it could stop you in your tracks? Could I ask what mental state causes you to start thinking like this?

Aww thank you! ❤️ I really hope that I could use that skill in my career. I've had friends say that I 'call them out' when I'm making an observation and sometimes it's a bit of an oopsies moment 😂

Wow, you're really using this lockdown to do so much! That's awesome that you've found a place that isn't so expensive. Have you got a mental health care plan from your GP? If it's cheap enough you may find a way to get them to bulk bill. That's also great that you've thinking about a new way to approach your new psych. Could I ask what those new methods might be? I've noticed that with my new psych I need to keep my sentences short because she doesn't let me ramble 😅

@StormySeas17 

hmmm it's hard to say what mental state it is but if I had to guess I think it would be like. I have a low mood/stressful emotion -> then I notice that I'm not feeling good and it makes me anxious -> anxiety brain wants to question everything and find threats and negatives everywhere!! Cue existential spiral!

Hahaha we really are alike, I have to try not to ramble at my psych as well. When she stops me it makes me feel cut off and not understood, but when she doesn't stop me I ramble myself into utter confusion... I think the best psych is one who can channel my rambling into a helpful conversation! which admittedly is quite a feat 😅 but I've had a couple psychs who could do it!

Some of my strategies would be 1) have a conversation with her about what seems to be helping and what doesn't 2) challenge my people-pleasing self to be totally honest!! 3) ask what options we have to do things differently 4) review my goals with her and try to come up with a new plan 5) show her some of my writing (I do a lot of journalling) to see if that helps her understand me.